What’s in this podcast?
AI might be moving quickly, but moving quickly without the right foundations can create more problems than it solves.
In this episode of Hub & Spoken, Jason Foster, CEO & Founder of Cynozure, is joined by Judy Howarth, Director of Data and AI at the Law Society, to explore how a 200-year-old institution is approaching data and AI while staying true to its purpose.
Judy shares why trusted, well-governed data has to come before ambitious AI adoption. She explains how the Law Society is balancing enthusiasm for new technology with responsible implementation and the importance of keeping human oversight at the heart of its use.
They also discuss how to give people the skills and confidence to use AI effectively, particularly when appetite across the organisation is high and there are plenty of opportunities to pursue.
The conversation explores where value is already emerging, from removing time-consuming manual tasks to creating more tailored AI tools that could improve how the organisation serves its members.
Judy also shares her perspective on leadership and why different experiences and backgrounds matter when building strong data and technology teams.
Episode timings
00:00 — Introduction
07:52 — Organisational strategy and the role of data and AI
13:25 — Early wins, adoption and prioritisation
18:32 — Responsible AI in the legal profession
23:54 — Building strong foundations and AI skills
26:59 — Future opportunities and member involvement
30:39 — Women in technology and building diverse teams
The following interview transcription has been edited for length and clarity.
00:00 — Introduction
Jason Foster:
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the show. Today I have with me Jude Howarth. Jude is the Director of Data and AI at the Law Society. We’re talking about how this 200-year-old institution is evolving through data and AI. I’m really pleased to have Jude with me. Jude, welcome to the show.
Jude Howarth:
Thank you, Jason. Nice to meet you. Hello, everyone. I’m Jude Howarth, the Director of Data and AI at the Law Society. I’ve been in my post for just over six months now, so I’m relatively new, but the Law Society is quite well known.
We’re a professional body that represents solicitors in England and Wales, and we have more than 200,000 solicitors. As you said, we’re 200 years old. We represent the profession and advocate for access to justice and the rule of law, so we represent the public interest as well.
We provide events, training resources and networks. We work with governments, influence decision-makers and talk about issues that affect the profession. We’re very much an advocate for our members, while continuing to provide access to justice and uphold the rule of law as critical pillars of the Law Society.
Jason Foster:
It’s quite broad. I’ve talked to quite a few membership organisations that represent their industries and the individuals within them. I can see there’s an element of that, but I think you’re much broader in terms of advocacy, trying to drive change and supporting individuals in gaining access to legal support and help. It’s quite a broad organisation in that sense.
Jude Howarth:
Very broad. Our members are obviously the key people we represent, but we also provide services for the public, such as our Find a Solicitor service, and plenty of other opportunities for them to engage with us.
We’re here to support solicitors throughout their careers, provide training, help them remain compliant and give them guidance. Technology and AI are obviously areas in which we provide a lot of support. We also work with legislators to share some of the challenges around technology and ensure we influence decision-makers on matters that affect the legal profession.
Jason Foster:
You said you’ve not been there that long: six months is a relatively short period, particularly compared with 200 years. I’m interested in whether the work the Law Society does has changed over those 200 years.
Obviously, we’re in a very different world now, but are the fundamentals the same? Is the service broadly similar, with the scope having increased? What changes have we seen over the years?
Jude Howarth:
I think the main change is staying relevant by using technology. We still represent our solicitor body, as we always have. We’re always working with the government and ensuring that we provide access to resources.
We have a beautiful library that solicitors can use to access some fantastic resources. We also provide training, which would previously have taken place more in person, but we now offer many different types of training and ways to access resources. As the world has moved on, we’ve stayed alongside it.
The legal profession has changed. We’re not back in 1825 anymore, so we’ve moved with the times. Every new opportunity and technology challenge presents questions: how do you stay relevant? How do you keep on top of technology? How do you ensure it represents your clients and legal firms, and that you remain compliant in how you use it?
We’ve evolved, as every organisation that has been around that long must, to stay on top of the opportunities that technology and modern thinking bring.
Jason Foster:
The law has also changed. It has become more complex, with more restrictions and controls. We’re more global, and there are more challenges and legislative issues.
You mentioned that one of your key stakeholders is the government, so I assume some of that filters down into the profession and adds another level of complexity.
Jude Howarth:
Absolutely. We represent solicitors in England and Wales, but they don’t only practise in England and Wales, so you’ve got international law in the mix. You’ve also got all the changes we’ve experienced through political and socioeconomic situations, and those affect the industry.
You’ve got to stay relevant, reflect what’s going on in the profession and ensure that we’re a strong voice for it. That’s varied in terms of not only the political climate but also how culture has changed in the UK.
There’s a lot to stay on top of, but we’re there to reflect the complexity of the legal landscape and the challenges the profession faces from day to day.
07:52 — Organisational strategy and the role of data and AI
Jason Foster:
How does that translate into the organisation’s strategy? What is the Law Society typically trying to achieve?
Jude Howarth:
Ultimately, we’re there to help the profession respond to change. As I said, we’re focusing on technology and AI, but we’re also there to help our members gain better value from their membership, understand their different needs and strengthen their professional voice.
That relates closely to what you were referring to around changes in politics, the climate and technology. Continuing to give the public access to justice is also critical.
We continue to do what we’ve always done in that respect, but within a constantly changing landscape. We’ve been negotiating all of that over the last 200 years, but the pillars have remained strong. We’re here to support and represent the profession, and that hasn’t changed.
Jason Foster:
That consistency in the strategic pillars must have an effect on your role. You’re six months in and have been brought in to do some work in the data and AI space. What are the shape and scope of that work, and where do you sit within the organisation?
Jude Howarth:
My role is to help the organisation use data better and become data-centric in everything we do. That requires the right foundations.
Before I arrived, a lot of work had been done to put in a data platform, strengthen our data governance, clarify ownership, responsibilities and models, and create central, accessible, high-quality data that the organisation can use.
From there, it’s about gaining a deeper understanding of what our members do, how they engage with us and the services we provide.
The AI aspect is about how we introduce AI responsibly and ethically, how we can best deploy it across the organisation, and how we put the right training in place so that we use it correctly. There are great opportunities around innovation, saving time and transforming people’s day-to-day work so they can focus on more member-centric activities.
Everyone has manual aspects to their role, but AI and automation can definitely help with those. My focus has been on getting the foundations right, gaining deeper insight from the data we have, and using AI to automate manual activity and streamline how we operate. That allows us to focus more on activities and services for members.
Jason Foster:
That’s the broad remit of a data leader in an organisation: the data, insights and AI elements linked together.
Going back to the organisation’s consistent strategic direction, have you been able to connect your agenda to those priorities? What use cases or requirements has that produced in terms of where you focus your data, insights and AI initiatives?
Jude Howarth:
I sit at operational director level, so we work closely with our heads of business units and across the whole organisation. It’s not siloed within a hierarchy. What we do is foundational to our missions because data is an enabler of those missions.
Having trusted data means you can understand members better. You can better understand your engagement with policymakers and identify areas of focus by looking at what solicitors are talking about on social media, for example. Trusted data has to be at the centre of much of what we do if we are to respond better to our members’ needs.
It’s not just about putting in a platform. It’s also about how you use it and the cultural side. How do you make the organisation comfortable with accessing data in that way? How do people read that data and use it to make decisions?
It’s bigger than the technical implementation of AI or platforms. It involves working with the organisation so that people feel comfortable with these new tools and technologies, and can use the information to move forward in their roles. We have to perform our roles more efficiently to serve our members, so we must focus internally as well as externally.
13:25 — Early wins, adoption and prioritisation
Jason Foster:
Where are you starting to see some of the biggest wins or successes, or where do you expect them to be, given that you haven’t been there very long?
Jude Howarth:
We ran a really good AI pilot. Some of the use cases don’t necessarily sound transformational, but they save a great deal of time. They include meeting transcriptions and adjusting communications to make them appropriate and engaging across different levels of the organisation.
Those are some of the things the pilot group has shared with us: people are saving hours on manual tasks and can then do more engaging work. I’m sure that, as we roll it out more widely, we’ll hear about different and more nuanced use cases.
It’s a learning curve. It’s never done and dusted. As AI grows, you gain different capabilities. We also have some data analysts joining us shortly, who will use the AI capabilities within our data platform to interrogate the data more effectively and produce forecasts and advanced analytics. That will help us understand our members’ future needs. We’re only at the beginning, so it’s a journey.
Jason Foster:
When you’re early in that journey, there are so many directions you can take and priorities you can pursue. Typically, you have some stakeholders who really understand it and are motivated and bought in, while others need help to see where it can benefit them.
There’s a judgement to make about how you prioritise, make progress, educate the organisation and build the foundations at the same time. Has it been challenging to create that momentum? How have you got the organisation behind what you’re trying to achieve?
Jude Howarth:
I have to say, it’s one of the few organisations I’ve joined where everyone is driven by change and excited about data and AI. I haven’t faced a challenge in building momentum or adoption. It has been more of a prioritisation exercise: where do we focus, what do the roadmaps look like and where do these items sit?
You can consider a matrix of high impact and low effort, but it’s not always that straightforward. It’s more about demand management than building momentum and gaining support for these activities.
Jason Foster:
That’s a good problem to have.
Jude Howarth:
It really is. It’s one of the first organisations I’ve joined where everyone is excited. The question is simply how quickly we can move.
Jason Foster:
What are some of the things that ended up in that high-impact, low-effort category?
Jude Howarth:
I wouldn’t say any of them are low effort, to be honest, but the AI Copilot rollout is definitely high impact. It involves people, guidance, training, adoption and working with the organisation to ensure the tool is used properly and effectively.
In terms of speed of adoption, I imagine that will be one of the quickest initiatives. One of the slowest may be developing advanced analytics because we’re limited in terms of resources. You can’t hire 100 people into new roles immediately, so you have to make that priority call and work with different stakeholders to identify the greatest need.
That will probably be the slowest area in terms of speed, but not in terms of engagement or value.
Jason Foster:
You’ve got the will; it’s about prioritising the right areas. In my experience, you also have to explain why certain things can take time. A pilot might be easier, but putting something on rails across an organisation requires different thinking.
In some ways, you have to slow people down while maintaining their appetite and ensuring that you continue to deliver.
Jude Howarth:
Definitely. We have excellent internal and external communications teams, and they work closely with us to help maintain momentum and manage expectations around what we can deliver.
They build on the excitement by letting people know that these tools and the training are coming, and explaining the opportunities the tools bring. They’ve been very helpful in driving those messages across the organisation. We keep everyone excited while also helping them understand that Rome wasn’t built in a day.
18:32 — Responsible AI in the legal profession
Jason Foster:
There’s another aspect to the legal profession. It’s about laws, trust, confidential information and the boundaries around certain cases. There’s a great deal of professional judgement involved. There’s an art as well as a science to the legal profession, with evidence and cases being built.
I know you don’t deal directly with the cases themselves, but trust, confidentiality and judgement are important characteristics of the profession and the industry. That often breeds a culture of taking fewer risks.
In that environment, how do you innovate responsibly? How do you acknowledge those characteristics of the industry while also innovating? Has that been a challenge, or has it helped enable and drive some of your initiatives?
Jude Howarth:
In terms of initiatives, we do a lot of work to provide guidance, best practice, support and training. The legal profession has been quick to adopt AI because people see the huge benefits of synthesising information and helping to prepare documentation.
However, like anybody using AI responsibly, they understand the importance of having a human in the loop, verifying outputs, checking sources and ensuring the arguments they put forward are validated using the expertise they have in-house.
You can’t rely on an AI tool to produce an outcome without anyone checking it. Like everybody else, legal professionals are keen to ensure that they use it responsibly and check the sources and information they share.
Just because an AI tool provides an output doesn’t mean it is responsible for that output’s impact. You have to take ownership of and responsibility for the outcome you deliver with AI. The legal profession is no different from anyone else in understanding that.
Our role is to provide guidance and work with governments and policymakers to reflect how the legal profession is using AI, the challenges it faces and the relevant best practice. We’re influencing legislation so that we don’t slow down innovation and the use of AI, while also being clear about the critical risks and challenges. We’re transparent in what we share.
Jason Foster:
Those characteristics also exist internally. In setting your strategy and carrying out the work, there’s the AI side and the data side. You must consider whether you give people full access, whether they understand what that means and whether they recognise their responsibility to ensure that the data they use, and how they use it, remains trustworthy and confidential.
I imagine those characteristics of the legal profession also influence how you approach your work from a data perspective.
Jude Howarth:
Definitely. Governance is key. It comes back to the data foundations. If we hadn’t put security labelling and ring-fences around critical and sensitive information within our own infrastructure before switching on AI, we would have faced challenges.
You have to ensure that the foundations, data management and security are right before you venture into AI. A lot of work was done on that before we even ran the pilot. We have to get our own foundations right if we’re going to advocate that approach to everybody else.
I spent some time at a large conference called Legal Geek, where we talked about how AI will magnify the challenges in your data and infrastructure. You must work on those solid foundations before moving forward with any AI implementation.
It isn’t simply a new tool that you switch on, which is how many people think AI can be used. It will highlight the ghosts in the machine, so you need to get your data in order first.
23:54 — Building strong foundations and AI skills
Jason Foster:
Has that been a major priority and almost the first step in solving the challenge?
Jude Howarth:
Absolutely. That’s one of the reasons we wanted the data platform in place first.
We haven’t given everyone full access to the data platform because it contains a great deal of information. Instead, we’ve provided access through reports and other critical insights so that people can benefit from the data it contains.
You must have governance, safeguards and role-based access controls around your data. You also need to provide education when implementing AI. It is only as good as the data you have organised and stored, and the libraries must be accessible or restricted according to the sensitivity of that data and who should be able to access it.
In my view, managing those sources within an AI tool is no different from managing data in a platform. That’s stage one.
Jason Foster:
Have you found areas where AI isn’t working, won’t work or presents greater challenges?
Jude Howarth:
I think there are a lot of human aspects. One part of our Copilot rollout training is explaining that the better you prompt it, the better the outcome will be.
AI doesn’t necessarily have the context. If you use it regularly, it starts to understand the person using it, their role and some of the things they’ve asked about. It builds that library, but you have to give it enough information and prompt it correctly to get the right outcome.
You wouldn’t have a conversation with someone without giving them any context about what you were discussing because they would be confused. AI is no different.
One of the challenges we address in our training is the assumption that someone has asked it for something and it has returned a load of incorrect information. That may be because they haven’t prompted it correctly, so there’s an education piece.
We’re using Copilot across our Microsoft suite, but there are obviously other tools. We’ll be exploring Claude for our developers, for example, as well as other AI tools and the creation of our own bespoke tools.
Those will also require governance, use cases and controls around who can access and develop what, and which data they can use. We’re early in that journey. Prompting is one of the critical areas in which people are struggling to achieve good outcomes because they aren’t providing the right information.
Jason Foster:
It comes down to the quality of the input, which is data in its own right. The input you provide is data, and the output you receive is data. There’s an ironic lesson about rubbish in, rubbish out when it comes to interacting with large language models as well.
Jude Howarth:
Absolutely.
26:59 — Future opportunities and member involvement
Jason Foster:
What are you most excited about as you look ahead? You’re six months in and well underway with understanding the opportunities, where this technology can be deployed and where it can add value. Where are you most looking forward to taking it?
Jude Howarth:
For me, the exciting part is adoption: people finding that they can add real value in their day-to-day work because they have automated many manual tasks with AI.
It becomes part and parcel of what they do and part of their ways of working. That doesn’t mean they stop questioning the output, but it becomes natural to think, “I’ll ask Copilot to help me summarise this or create this email.” It becomes part of day-to-day practice, and that’s exciting to me.
The next step is creating bespoke tools that solve problems unique to a particular business case or team, and seeing how that benefits our members. Ultimately, everything we’re doing is intended to serve our members.
We want to explore how we can incorporate those AI tools into the ways we engage with members, save time and provide information to them more quickly.
That’s where I see the future once we’ve rolled out Copilot and the whole organisation has become accustomed to AI and its benefits. We can then become more specific with our tools and use cases, developing them for internal use while ensuring that members ultimately receive the benefits.
Jason Foster:
How much do you involve members in the things you’re providing? Are they part of the process of testing, trialling and using them, or is the work hidden from them because you’re using these tools behind the scenes to support your engagement and relationships?
Jude Howarth:
It comes down to internal and external engagement. Externally, members have helped to create our AI strategy and are closely involved in how we work with governments and policymakers.
From an internal perspective, we’re only at the beginning of our journey. We have a number of programmes in which solicitors can participate, including our Get Involved programme. There will be plenty of opportunities to involve members in some of the outputs we generate.
At the moment, we’re focused on rolling out these tools, gaining their benefits and understanding the value they can provide. Those benefits will then begin to reach members.
We carry out numerous activities with members. Members sit on our councils and are closely involved in our governance, so they’re very much part of the organisation from that perspective as well.
Jason Foster:
It’s great that you’re building things closely with and for the people who will benefit from them. It’s a smart way of making sure you get it right earlier in the process.
Jude Howarth:
Definitely.
30:39 — Women in technology and building diverse teams
Jason Foster:
How important has supporting women in technology and data been during your career? How are you making that real and practical in your work at the Law Society?
Jude Howarth:
It’s a good and very timely question because we’re hosting an event with a recruitment agency we work with that does a lot around women in technology. We’re hosting a Women in Tech event at the Law Society.
For me, it’s about supporting women in their careers through technology and data. It’s about giving women a voice at the table alongside everybody else and showcasing their talents.
One thing I’ve often encountered, particularly around recruitment, is that women will look at a job description and think, “I can’t do half of that, so I won’t apply.” But you can apply. As long as you’re transparent in your interview, answer the questions and demonstrate your expertise, it’s for the company to decide whether you’re eligible for that role. Don’t decide not to apply because you don’t tick all 10 boxes.
It’s about building confidence, working with peers throughout their careers and reinforcing the message that they can do it. They are valuable, they have a voice and they should share their opinions. Everyone has a role to play in technology and data and should put their point of view across.
These events give people the opportunity to share their learning, understand the experiences of others and cover topics that are important not only to women but also to men, including career guidance, what works, what doesn’t and how to achieve a work-life balance.
It’s a fantastic opportunity. I love those events, whether I’m participating in them or simply in the room listening to what’s being shared, because you learn so much. I find that women are such cheerleaders for other women, and it’s great to support people at different stages of their careers.
If I can be up there and people think, “If she can get there, maybe I can get there,” then that’s great. But that’s not the reason I’m there. I’m there because I have something to say and someone has asked me to talk about it, so why wouldn’t I?
Jason Foster:
You have the lived experience. You’re a woman in technology and data, and you’ve built a great career from it. Those stories are interesting and inspiring for people.
I’m a strong advocate and ally for this conversation because there’s so much power in the story. When you look at yourself, you can downplay it and think, “That’s just what I did. It’s not interesting.” But what you did, how you did it, the steps you took and the planning, or lack of planning, can be really valuable to other people.
Aside from the event, how prominent is this in the way you’re building your team and influencing how other teams are built?
Jude Howarth:
It’s a Women in Tech event, so women working in technology across the organisation are invited and we want them to be part of it. We’re also inviting women in technology from other organisations, colleagues, people we’ve met along the way and the wider public.
It’s important to show the opportunities available through a career in technology and data. It’s also important for other teams to see that there isn’t a straight, linear path into certain careers. You can take different journeys to reach the same area.
People have varied experiences and come from different backgrounds, and it’s essential that all of that is represented.
In terms of teams, it’s important to model the right behaviours and be willing to stand up and speak so that other people feel they might be able to do the same. Of course they can. Why wouldn’t they?
If you show people, “I can do it, and you can do it,” that builds their confidence. They then become more aware of other people they can help and share their experience with, whether they’re two years, three years or six months into their careers.
Everyone has lived experience of their current stage in their career, and they should be able to share it. That variety of experience and background is what creates really good teams. I’m simply role-modelling that because I’m there.
Jason Foster:
I love it. That will be a huge asset to the Law Society as you build your team and the organisation’s capabilities.
It’s been great to talk about a 200-year-old institution going all in on leading-edge technology. It shows the level of innovation and the appetite to remain at the forefront and drive the agenda. As you’re influencing external stakeholders, you also get to influence how this works beyond the four walls of your organisation.
It’s been fascinating to talk this through with you. Thank you for joining me, Jude.
Jude Howarth:
Thank you. It’s been a great opportunity, and I really appreciate it. Thank you, Jason.
